My Love Letter to Late Night Live - Highlights, Critique, Praise
Heads up! This is a long blog.
Browse the Contents to discover some listening that might interest you.
Comments welcome
(This is the 2nd part of this series of three blogs. Click on any of the following content topics to read some of the highlights, critique and praise for the interviews within each section. To listen to the interviews, note the number in brackets below and then you can find it, with hyperlinks to the interviews, in the 3rd part of this series, My Love Letter to Late Night Live – 52 Links)
Contents
Science
I start with science as it has been my principal interest and fascination throughout my entire career.
The massive body of human knowledge delivered by these interviewees is truly astounding. I only wish that more journalists in Australia might learn to appreciate what a diverse array of knowledge resides in our collective body of science. Too often in Australia, journalists seek comments only from well-known scientists such as a ‘Tim Flannery’ or a ‘Richard Kingsford’! Listening to these interviews, we learn from many world experts with fascinating stories to tell.
I acknowledge that many of us scientists are not good communicators. However, when LNL focuses mostly on those who have recently published a book by a reputable publisher, it is easy to ignore the knowledge of all those in science who are not the publishers of recent books. What a pity!
Let’s start with something we all know something about – sugar! In this interview which David Marr conducted with Professor Ulbe Bosma from the Netherlands, we learn so much about the fascinating history of sugar and its importance across the world (2). Where did it come from? How important was it to our societies across the world? How was slavery involved? How is sugar refined? How has it affected our health and environment? To learn so much about this basic commodity from this experienced social historian was eye opening!
Many of us may have learned about the Fibonacci sequence in mathematics or biology but who knew that Fibonacci is so under-appreciated as a mathematician (3)? Phillip interviews Professor Keith Devlin from Stanford University who tells us how profound this man’s influence was, back in the 13th century in the heart of the Renaissance, in Tuscany, Italy. Having had the good fortune of visiting Siena and Museo Galileo in Florence, I can just picture this place as a fertile incubator for the rise of mathematics. Fibonacci is credited with bringing the Hindu-Arabic number system to the attention of mathematicians across the Western world and this profoundly changed our ability to compute with numbers.
(As an aside, during this interview with Devlin, Phillip boasts that he has interviewed academic experts in every discipline over the years! As you will see, I will argue in a later section that I contend he has not interviewed sufficient scientific experts in at least one important discipline I am familiar with - agricultural science!)
Until I heard Phillip’s interview with Professor Wade Davis of the University of British Columbia in Canada, I did not know how anthropology can help us understand the human species (4). Davis tells us “… the very purpose of anthropology is to make the world safe for human differences”. One of the founders of anthropology who inspires him is Franz Boas who learned so much from the Inuit. What a powerful discussion! He speaks so clearly about so many vital matters that are interconnected, including humans and our impact on climate change. This is an absolute must listen for any who seek to better understand how race and culture have evolved throughout history – especially now that we know, through science, that all humans are cut from the same genetic ‘cloth’. He tells us: “race is truly a fiction”!
Phillip’s interview with Professor Lee McIntyre of Boston University provides us with a powerful defense of the scientific method (5). McIntyre tells us how he bravely attended an international conference of ‘flat earthers’ to learn more about how to communicate with science deniers. Hearing him talk about the fundamental honesty of science, his explanation of the importance of accumulating evidence, data sharing, peer review and replication was music to my ears!
A few months later, we heard another interview on LNL about these issues with the same Professor McIntyre, this time by Jonathon Green. In this interview, McIntyre stresses the importance of pushing back against science denial (6). If one is talking to a science denier, he advises us to treat that person with respect, to listen and to earn their trust. It is only then that, perhaps gradually, one can manage to change a belief about a particular issue that might be explained with trustworthy scientific evidence.
I found the interview by presenter Sarah Dingle with Dan Egan, a journalist in residence at the University of Wisconsin, put too much of a sensational spin on an essential element, phosphorus (7). I have blogged elsewhere about my concern that journalists too often provide us with a ‘sensational spin’ on articles about science, presumably to attract a wider audience. Yes, the element in question – phosphorus – can cause problems but it should be emphasised more strongly that this element is essential to all cell processes in all living things on this planet and must not only be managed appropriately but also praised more widely and valued more deeply.
The scientific method gets a great outing in this interview with Professor Avi Loeb who heads the wonderfully named ‘Galileo Project’. As a practitioner of ‘intelligent’ life on Earth, it is pleasing to hear Phillip appreciating how science and its methods are crucial for finding the truth (8) about unknowns like alien civilisations and the possibility of ‘intelligent’ life beyond our planet. But, may I suggest, if the scientific method is needed for this topic, why isn’t it also just as necessary for exploring the truth about all factual matters – such as those dear to my heart, like the science of food and fibre production?
If we are ever to communicate with other species, especially mammals, no doubt it will be a profound turning point for humans and our planet! In this fascinating interview, Tom Mustill, a nature filmmaker, suggests that, with the aid of artificial intelligence, we may be communicating with whales within a decade (9). That seems extraordinary to me, but I guess that changes in acoustic and language technologies are happening so rapidly that it may well come true.
Recognising and understanding climate change has been a long-held interest of Phillip’s. Even though it is clear he is not too familiar with the scientific aspects of soil biology such as the role of mycorrhizal symbioses, this interview highlights the importance of understanding the role of fungi within the soil (10). Yes, it is true that soil fungi are poorly understood and Professor Toby Kiers from the Netherlands is doing all she can to promote their importance and hoping to highlight their role in carbon sequestration to mitigate climate change. I must caution however - having taught and researched in a university Department of Agronomy and Soil Science for decades - I am not holding my breath waiting for enough humans to appreciate the value of that stuff beneath our feet. Sadly, soil is ignored by most humans as it is being either allowed to erode into the sea, or be covered in concrete, housing and parking lots!
I found Phillip’s interview with author and journalist Drew Rooke about an under-qualified forensic pathologist (11) underwhelming. It was interesting to hear of the errors made and how this overly confident State government pathologist was appointed without possessing appropriate qualifications. Undoubtedly, scientists make mistakes but, in the discipline of forensic science, it can have catastrophic consequences – especially for the accused in court cases if they get it wrong. Rooke tells us the sad tales of some misdiagnoses of the cause of death for an aboriginal who died in jail and of the deaths of three small children.
The listener is left with a ‘bad taste in their mouth’ about science that might contribute to a lack of trust in science. Might there not be more criticism of how a bureaucratic government department appointed an unqualified person to a key scientific position? What about the failure of the courts to insist that there should be a system of accountability that would prevent the continued employment of someone without sufficient qualifications? The only way that causes of death can be determined accurately is with the rigorous application of scientific methods together with a trustworthy system of checks and audits. We know all too well from other ABC programs - such as Background Briefing – of the need for trust and transparency when those who see malpractice blow the whistle.
One of my concerns about media coverage of science is that it is too often portrayed as somewhat ‘nerdy’ and not the domain or ‘real’ commentators. In David Marr’s interview with Pam Swepson and Professor Nigel Andrew we hear what I thought was a somewhat flippant interview about a matter that is a very serious national problem (12); the control of fire ants which are invading Australia with terrifying consequences. It may well be that fire ants will not disrupt the lives of most voters who live in concrete and tar cities, but all other regions, farms and wildlife, including in national parks, will be devastated. It would have been worth noting that, over recent decades, all Australian States have seriously downgraded their investments in agricultural extension leaving it to private providers to fill the vacuum. In the case of NSW, the extension component of the former Department of Agriculture (later the Department of Primary Industries) was substantially downgraded and subsumed into the environmentally focused Local Land Services. I would suggest that the annual cost to the nation of just this one invader could pay for all the preventative and monitoring staff needed across the nation, indefinitely!
Democracy
I have very much enjoyed LNL’s coverage of matters democratic. Phillip’s interview with George Monbiot explains many of the threats to democracy around the world (13). He explains how social media, billionaires, neoliberalism and the far right are challenging the voices of ordinary citizens across much of the world. He points out that voters in many democracies are disappointed by ‘politics as usual’ which have allowed multiple crises to arise. Thus, the world is facing an ecological tipping point which may make much of the world uninhabitable due to the complexity of interacting biophysical, economic and geopolitical systems. Still, he has hope that societal tipping points can flip quite quickly.
In Australia, there are welcome moves to improve our trust in government through democratic reforms to restore accountability and trust (14). Retired judge Stephen Charles and Research Fellow Dr Catherine Williams explain how we might be able to combat the misuse of public funds for political advantage to protect our fragile democracy. They argue for better disclosure of financial interests in politics and describe how a strong national anti-corruption body might be developed and equipped to tackle cases of possible corruption reported by whistleblowers and others.
Publishing
One of my most exasperating academic experiences is that of ‘publish or perish’. In fact, I believe it might be better expressed as ‘publish AND perish’! I was delighted to see this issue get some exposure on LNL when David Marr interviewed Professor Arash Abizadeh from Canada’s McGill University about his article which challenges the scam of academic publishing (15). He explains how universities often have to pay twice for accessing academic papers which are first written by their paid academics and then, once published, are held behind paywalls created and maintained by for-profit publishers of those academic papers. It is a bizarre system which needs to be tackled across the world so that all humanity can benefit from having access to trustworthy peer-reviewed publications from all disciplines.
Most interviews concern recently published books. In contrast, I was amazed to hear Phillip introduce a self-published book about the injustice faced by Aboriginal people (16) by historical and cultural researcher Don Nawurlany Christophersen. The interview explains the sad story of Charlie Flannigan, an Aboriginal stockman, who was the first person hanged in the Northern Territory back in 1893. The author describes how, around the same period, the treatment of Aboriginal people in the justice system differed from white people accused of even more horrendous crimes.
The ABC
Whilst many are critical of the ABC, apparently 79% of Australian citizens appreciate it! I am certainly one of that strong majority. It was very enjoyable to listen to Patrick Mullins and Matthew Ricketson explain the value of the ABC to Australia (17) in an interview with Phillip in March 2022. Yes, I agree that the ABC tends to be “Sydney-centric”.
Yes, it is a cultural institution but also, as Australia’s public broadcaster for over 90 years, it is not only essential to our democracy but also greatly influences debate across the nation’s ‘public square’. They express great concern about politicised appointments to the ABC Board and the up-down nature of funding that oscillates between progressive and conservative governments. They suggest that the ABC should adopt arms-length governance and increase the funding cycle so that it overlaps political terms (it is pleasing to note that the 2022 incoming Labor government adopted the 5-year funding cycle from July 2023 - perhaps LNL is quite influential? If so, that is greatly to its credit!).
As a resident of a regional city, I agree with Patrick and Matthew that citizens in rural and regional areas of Australia have a special appreciation of the ABC as it provides trustworthy information.
I agree with their recommendation that the ABC should be funded via a fixed percentage of government expenditure to reduce the impacts of politics on funding allocations.
They mention the high frequency of criticisms of the ABC coming especially from the Murdoch media which, obviously, has a vested interest in seeking to constrain the ABC. At the end of the interview, Phillip admits that he “gets a huge amount of complaints that I still write for Rupert Murdoch”. I agree! Phillip’s stance seems quite hypocritical to me; but I guess, like so many other personalities, Phillip likes having platforms for promoting his thoughts. (As an aside, I wonder why all ethical journalists don’t boycott X due to the massive conflict of interest of its owner, Elon Musk, as I recommended in an another blog.)
History
As one who has never formally studied history, I particularly appreciate the great interest of LNL in matters historical. It is such an important discipline for all of us to learn from!
A prime example of the importance of history is given in this interview when Phillip devours yet another professor – this time Professor Peter Frankopan of Oxford University - on how history informs our moment of global chaos (18). Peter’s deep knowledge of Byzantine history has extended to the Silk Roads and the transformation of planet Earth. He explains the clear relevance of history to how Putin views Ukraine and its relationship to Russia. It is enlightening to hear him challenge the Western-centric way of thinking about history. And his long view of history extends to how we all need to be looking after our soil, water and air if we are to avoid further degradation of our planet Earth. The capacity of nature to support life is diminishing and this will, of course, have an impact on our food supply. History teaches us of the vital importance of storing food from surpluses to cope with coming famines. It is encouraging to hear him conclude that, in these times of change, there is more appetite for reflections from history. I strongly recommend listening to this interview!
Delving into the lives of the Macarthurs (19) was the subject of Jonathan Green’s interview with Professor Alan Atkinson. This is of great interest to me personally - as my mother’s maiden name was Macarthur - having descended from Hannibal Macarthur, the nephew of Elizabeth and John Macarthur. Atkinson was able to delve into the vast digital library to develop a deep understanding of these two complex colonial characters who saw Australia as a place with a unique position in the world. They were both strong-willed people who worked in an intimate partnership which was influential in the new colony. When they first married, they intended to go abroad, gather money, and return to the UK. But John was obviously quite clever and ambitious as he pushed his career forward in NSW. Elizabeth became extremely happy with her life in NSW, including in the Australian bush. In her letters, she is a highly reflective writer, especially when writing to her sons who had returned to England. The interview concludes with consideration of their views of the indigenous people of Australia. According to Alan, the Macarthurs held the view that they were helping to bring Aboriginal people into the ‘civilised’ world.
This interview about the world’s greatest dynasties (20) that Phillip conducted with British historian Simon Sebag Montefiore was fabulous! The families who have shaped the span of world history are described with the intimacy of biography. Who knew that the world has been influenced so much by so few family dynasties? The music, the food, the families great and small, described by some as “succession meets Games of Thrones”. The reader doesn’t have to know history in order to enjoy it. The dynastic families are described from Iraq, Persia, Egypt, Genghis Khan, the Ottoman empire right through to the Rothschilds, Kennedys and Trumps.
Presenter Jonathon Green invites horologist and historian David Rooney to tell the somewhat quirky and fascinating story of the importance of time keeping to civilisations (21). How humans measure time has been such a key part of history stretching from sundials to incredibly accurate atomic clocks. What is time? We take the measurement of time for granted. We learn how time is measured and how time affects social order and behaviour and how time “smashed the day into bits”. Clocks also command us to act according to the time.
My appreciation for First Nations history was given a huge boost when I listened to historian Professor Henry Reynolds getting to know First Nations history through teaching (22). This engaging talk to the Byron Writers Festival resonated particularly with me. Reynolds explains how, as a young academic historian, he developed his knowledge of First Nations history with his students when he began teaching at James Cook University in Townsville. It was his experience of teaching that led to research with his students that allowed the unravelling of truths about frontier violence in North Queensland. He explains something of the ‘black armband’ view of history in Australia at the time. Around 1981, he and his wife got to know the Mabo family via a shared kindergarten. When Eddie Mabo became a groundsman at James Cook University, Henry met with him over many lunchtimes and heard how his people had lived in traditional communities continuously on his homeland, Murray Island. He explained - to Eddie Mabo’s horror - that, legally, he did not ‘own’ his land on Murray Island! Henry then tells a little more of the story from the initial spark of realisation by Eddie, which led to the native title case. After it eventually reached the High Court of Australia, it was ultimately decided that Eddie Mabo did in fact own his land. It is sobering to hear of Australia’s “legacy of unutterable shame” which was affecting Australia’s international standing at the time. We then learn that two of my heroes - Gough and Margaret Whitlam – were instrumental in changing some international minds about Australia’s racist past. “It was because of the Mabo case that Sydney got the Olympic Games”!
As an aside, Henry’s relating of this experience reminded me of how my own teaching and research (in agronomy) evolved over the years. I loved that I had to learn more in order to be more able to teach. My students helped me greatly in that pursuit - just as his students helped him come to understand the history of racial conflict in our nation.
Journalists
Understandably, LNL gives a lot of time to interviews with journalists. In his final episode as a presenter of LNL, Phillip Adams interviews journalist Walter Marsh who gives us great insights into the foundations of the Murdoch media empire (23). Who knew that the young Rupert Murdoch was a socialist and grew up debating at Geelong Grammar and studying at Oxford in the UK? Thrust into leadership of News Limited as a young 22-year-old, in 1952, he grew the business rapidly from its roots in South Australia. Many of the managers he appointed around the world cut their teeth on his paper in Adelaide. Rupert possesses uncommon instincts for the media and has always imposed unquestioned control over his media holdings.
Another of Phillip’s interviews highlighting the importance of journalism is that with the wonderfully brave and perceptive Margo Kingston who describes some of the factors resulting in the rise of Pauline Hanson and Australia’s lurch to the right. In her book about this subject, she describes how it led to the beginning of the Teal independents (24). We learn that she started her career with the Sydney Morning Herald and later became a ‘citizen’ journalist. In 2004, she wrote a book ‘Not Happy John!: defending our democracy’ which I very much enjoyed at the time. I also used to enjoy her interactions with her Webdiary. She helped get voters interested in issues of climate change and corruption. Then, as she says: “Zali and Helen won”! I was amazed to hear her describe the political influence of the Liberal-backed politically lobbyist campaign "Advance" which may currently be assisting the rise of Senator Jacinta Price within the Australian Federal coalition.
Margot is extremely perceptive of the trends that have occurred over decades and the split between progressives and conservatives!
The interview clearly demonstrates that Margot has an ethical approach to her work. It was a delight to hear a few gems too. For example, after her loss to Cathy McGowan in the seat of Indi, I was fascinated to learn that former Liberal member for that electorate, Sophie Mirabella, went to work for Gina Rinehart.
A ‘free press’ is widely believed to be an essential component of successful democracies. With the recent events in the Israel-Gaza war, the plight of journalists around the world seems to get ever more perilous. Phillip interviews three press freedom advocates, Peter Greste, Jodie Ginsberg and Jason Rezaian, who ably describe the challenges for journalists around the world (25). In 2023, 320 journalists are behind bars in jails around the world. Especially since ‘9/11’, journalists are now increasingly jailed for anti-state charges. The ‘siloing’ of information on different social media platforms is part of the problem. Death threats are made against journalists virtually on a daily basis, even in the UK and the USA. Calling journalists ‘enemies of the people’ has made things even more dangerous. As Peter Greste says: “We cannot underestimate the importance of good independent journalism which is produced according to a set of ethics and standards”. Phillip reminds us of the influence that proprietors of media can have who can create a culture of self-censorship in their journalists. Politicians must demonstrate that they believe in the value of a free press and will not legislate against the role of journalists. Also, Peter calls for the protection of whistleblowers.
An Australian journalist with a fabulous resume is Chris Masters who reflects on searching for the truth (26) throughout his career. What a wonderful interview! Phillip wants to award him a medal for bravery as an investigative journalist! It’s fascinating that he joined the ABC straight out of school, to carry the mailbag. He found working in the ABC’s rural department helped him to calibrate his ‘moral compass’. Indeed, the way he speaks about his investigations shows how ethical his approach has been throughout his career. In the 1980s, he was involved in a 4-Corners episode called “The Big League” which looked at corruption in sport, resulting in a Royal Commission. It was so interesting to learn of his involvement in reporting on the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior in New Zealand, the Fitzgerald enquiry in Queensland, his book on Alan Jones and his abuse of power in his book JonesTown, and on investigations of war crimes by Australian soldiers. “The social media environment is so distressing and depressing – what can you do about it?” “We need to regain our moral authority”. Listening to this talk emphasises not only the value of this extraordinary investigative journalist but the value of our national broadcaster, the ABC, which cultivated this committed teller of truth.
It was very moving to listen to this talk between Phillip and journalist and award-winning columnist Michael Pascoe who describes his book which explores vulnerability and friendship (27). The interview, and the book, convey lots about human relationships - especially as we age (something I am quite familiar with!). Much of the book focuses on the exchanges of memories and caring between Michael and his friend from his school days, Jim. He marvels at how far many of us of a certain age have progressed “on the back of our parents”. “The most powerful force on Earth is a mother’s desire to see her children have a better chance than she had”! During the interview, it is fascinating to hear Phillip reveal something of his upbringing; he reflects that he was “raised on a tiny little farm by my grandfather – a man of total and utter integrity”!
An internationally acclaimed journalist and writer, Johann Hari, tells us why we in the modern world are losing our ability to focus deeply due to distractions (28) posed by our devices. Apparently, we touch our smart phones more than 2,000 times in 24 hours! We are now part of a world suffering from attention deficit disorder! Our brain is limited to thinking of just one or two things at a time. Being too busy means we are suffering from cognitive degradation which stops us being able to focus deeply. Listening to this interview through my headphones, while mowing the lawn as Johann is telling me to stop my mind wandering, was very pleasing. To overcome this problem, we need a movement to develop ways of owning the information ‘pipes’ that deliver impulses to us, so our devices are less distracting.
Lobbyists
David Marr covers a vitally important subject, how big money took over big government (29), in his interview with journalist Brody Mullins about lobbyists in the USA. David introduces the interview telling us that there are about 700 registered lobbyists in Canberra whilst there are 13,000 operating in Washington DC! Everything changed in the 1970s when US company profits declined; so, they decided they needed to combat the new rules and regulations. Now lobbyists not only influence politicians in Washington DC, but they are also active in influencing constituents across all voting districts. It is so hard for governments to protect the interests of consumers. In this way, lobbying has transformed the political process itself. In the USA, there is no limit to the money that billionaires, corporations or unions can spend to influence elections. Lobbyists are also being sent overseas to combat regulations around the globe. It is disturbing that the title of his book uses the word ‘wolves’ to represent lobbyists.
Economics
Over the years, Phillip has helped us understand international economics with the assistance of author and finance expert Satyajit Das. In this interview with Das, he helps us understand the interaction between interest rates and inflation (30) in Germany, Russia, China as well as Australia. Das has a unique ability to communicate his knowledge of economics in easy-to-understand language. He suggests that Environment, Social and Governance (ESG) considerations limit our progress on limiting fossil fuels. He says Australia likes reviews and Royal Commissions and notes that the government will review the Reserve Bank of Australia. He reminds us of “Yes Minister” when Sir Humphrey Appleby explained his requirement for reviews: “… you are not to look into anything you don’t have to, and certainly never unless the findings are already known”! How entertaining Das is!
Social issues
David Marr expertly managed this interview with four guests about the cancellation of a piano concert (31) in Melbourne due to the expression of support for journalists killed in Gaza. Jayson Gillham (the pianist), Violette Ayad (actor), Sverre Pederson (Executive Director of not-for-profit which monitors censorship of the arts around the world) and Louise Adler (arts publisher) discuss how the arts have been censored for expressions of political positions. Pleasingly, after the cancellation of the concert, Jayson received widespread support from around the world. As Louise said, “Freedom of expression for artists is vital”. Sverre spoke passionately about the double standards of many in the West who regard views about the holocaust quite differently to the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza. “It challenges our collective humanity”.
The philanthropy business in Australia is now being managed by just two companies. This interview with Dr Elizabeth Cham exposes an amazing exposé of philanthropic trusts in Australia (32). The shrinking of 30 trustee companies to only two was a consequence of the deregulation of the Australian economy in the 1980s. One of those is currently being purchased by a US private equity company, KKR. Unfortunately, “there is a lack of transparency and public accountability in the sector, with some of Australia's oldest charitable causes at stake”. This makes me even more cynical about the place of philanthropic trusts in Australia which, by their nature, are perpetual. If there are generous tax advantages for philanthropy, it is amazing that in Australia there is no transparency of where the money goes in contrast to the situation in the USA.
Surprising
I was never really a fan of the Australian sitcom Kath & Kim, but I did get a chuckle out of it on occasion. But listening to the fascinating life story (33) of Magda Szubanski, as told to Phillip, was a surprising treat! He tells us that she is one of his favourite Australians! She has such a long list of credits in television and the theatre. I found her articulate anecdotes to be quite moving, especially as she tells us how, in WWII, her father had to escape capture by traversing the sewers of Poland “with shit up to his chin”. But we also get to hear of her passion for humour, joy and naughtiness and witness her intelligence.
Another surprising interview was with Matt Noffs (grandson of the Reverend Ted Noffs), who Phillip said was like the son he never had! To hear him describe his fresh approach to helping young, troubled people (34) as CEO of the Ted Noffs Foundation was really enlightening. It gives one hope to hear Matt profess his hope for humanity. He is clearly someone strongly committed to breaking cycles of youth crime, punishment and drug use and working to help improve our ridiculous justice system. It was a bonus to learn that Phillip has been an important mentor to Matt for more than 20 years. No doubt, Phillip would thereby have had a positive influence on the lives of many young people through the good work of Matt and the Ted Noffs Foundation.
It was fascinating to learn about the tentacles of a global conservative network (35) with Dr Jeremy Walker at the University of Technology, Sydney. The Atlas Network is a constellation of ‘free market thinktanks’, founded in 1981. It has headquarters in Washington DC and links with 600 thinktanks across 100 countries. They aim to influence ideas across societies starting with funding from companies such as Standard Oil and other oil companies. The Koch brothers in the USA learned how to start up institutes, conduct research - which is tax deductible - and then publish results without disclosing the source of funding for the institutes. In Australia, funding has come from mining companies and Newscorp. According to Jeremy, this was around the time of the birth of neoliberalism, leading to John Howard’s liberal government being elected in 1996. Without disclosing their funding sources, bodies like Australia’s Institute of Public Affairs (IPA) flood the public sphere with the messages they want pushed out. As Phillip says: “their tentacles are everywhere”.
Politics
In this Classic LNL episode, we hear former Prime Minister Paul Keating and historian Frank Cain reflecting on the former NSW Labor Premier, Jack Lang (36) who was dismissed by the NSW Governor during the depression in 1932. He was such a reformer: for example, in the 1920s he introduced the 44-hour working week, brought in child endowment and abolished fees for secondary schools.
As an aside, I remember hearing Lang speak at the University of Sydney, not long before he passed away. I was an undergraduate at the time and can still remember his booming voice boldly declaring: “This year, I am starting on a new crusade!” I can’t remember what his crusade was, but I thought, that is not bad for a man in his 90s!
It was remarkable to hear Keating describe his regular meetings with him over a period of eight years. Lang was a classically educated, autodidact with a formal demeanour. He was only interested in those who could ‘pack a political punch’. He never travelled overseas; nor did he want to. What a different time! He had ‘real indignation at injustice’ and he knew what poverty was. It was sobering to hear of his sacking by the Governor, due largely to the failure of the Government Savings bank during the Depression.
Reflecting on the statement that Lang was an autodidact, I find it revealing that both Keating and Phillip left school before completing high school. We listeners might agree they are both what we might call autodidacts. If one can attain the highest office in the land (Keating) and one of the highest public pulpits in the land (Phillip), what hope is there for us mere mortals who undergo formal education?
Turning to international politics, it was enlightening to hear Phillip’s interview with journalist Vincent Bevins, discussing the fate of the ‘Arab spring’ and other protests (37). In spite of the historic size of mass protests in the 2010s, many of those involved failed to realise their hopes. Bevins describes the fate of mass protests in Egypt, Brazil, Hong Kong, South Korea and Chile.
Mass protests without structure are “poorly suited to take advantage of the type of power vacuum that is created across the decades”.
At the end of the interview, it was pleasing to hear Bevins reflect on his interactions with the more than 200 protesters he interviewed from the above countries who had not given up hope of building a better world.
Farming
In many of Phillip’s interviews about farming, my antennae detect a level of ideology about farming that conflicts with his otherwise strong faith in science. It is disappointing to me that, on matters related to farming, LNL’s interviews are mostly restricted to people who might not be described as ‘real’ farmers who grow commercial quantities of agricultural produce.
It is interesting to contemplate how matters of ideology are handled by the ABC, LNL, its producers and presenters, especially in relation to trust in science. As the dominant presenter of LNL over 35 years, Phillip has made it clear that he has great respect for science – at least those aspects that he appreciates most. In one of his tweets (April 4, 2022), he declared: “Be a faithiest. Have faith in science rather than religion”! We dear listeners have learned also from the occasional mention in his interviews – and in a tweet (March 14, 2022) – that he has benefited from medical science in the form of a pacemaker that has kept his heart beating regularly for at least 11 years without the battery needing a recharge! That is indeed wonderful science!
His interview with Irish author John Connell reveals a search for spiritual meaning by shepherding some twelve sheep in Ireland while learning to be a hobby livestock farmer (38). I was amazed to hear him describing an ancient Irish religion which tells of individual animals which could feed all the people of Ireland! I ask why this sort of myth gets mentioned on LNL when serious study of agricultural and rural science gets so little mention? I refer the reader to my learnings about agriculture science which brought me to seriously question the ‘magic puddin’ philosophy that, unfortunately, so many humans seem to believe in.
Phillip regularly tells us listeners that he practises organic farming on his farm, so it is perhaps not surprising to hear John tell us he has switched to organic farming on his farm.
Phillip then tells us how sheep farming in Australia has been ecologically catastrophic.
In the interview, John says he has been influenced by Charles Massy’s book ‘Call of the Reed Warbler’. Phillip declares that he is a fellow farmer who, with his wife, Dr Patrice Newell, run some comparatively rare Shropshire sheep on their farm at Gundy in NSW.
In introducing an historian, Professor Frank Uekotter from the University of Birmingham, Phillip declares that “I am a farmer” who has long been opposed to ‘monoculture farming’. So, we listeners are invited to learn about agronomy from an historian (39) who happens to be promoting ideas about farming consistent with Phillip’s.
Frank asks why we are employing monoculture farming and claims there is no clear theory for monocultures. Why do we still do this across the globe? He deplores the factory style systems and massive industrialisation of farming. He suggests that monocultures started in the Caribbean with sugar plantations and expanded with population growth after WWII.
They talk of the green revolution which helped overcome much starvation across the world. Have they not heard of Dr Norman Borlaug?
Phillip reluctantly concedes that cereals grown as monocultures get better yields (duh!) but then broadens the discussion to include problems of genetically modified crops, powerful seed companies and chemicals in agriculture.
There is not sufficient space here to debate all these issues. Having trained in agronomy, having worked for an international seed company (Sandoz), having led a research team seeking more sustainable farming systems at an Australian public university, I am well aware of much of the debate about these issues. There is much known about answers to the questions raised such as synchronisation of harvest maturity, weed control, efficiencies of mechanisation, hybrid vigour, desirable genetic traits, herbicide and insect resistance and integrated control of weeds, diseases and pests.
Yes, there are solutions but today, the well-fed part of the world, including Frank’s UK and our Australia, takes its food supply totally for granted. I have argued elsewhere (again, see ‘magic puddin’ philosophy’) it is the collective complacency of well-fed humans that has allowed us to largely abandon publicly funded research and extension to deliver sustainable farming solutions, leaving a vacuum that has been filled by private enterprise (at times supported with Government funding) and some idealogues pushing vested interests and agendas.
Yes, let’s remember the potato famine, southern corn leaf blight, cane toads, etc.
I am afraid I don’t agree with Phillip’s suggestion that organic farming will solve the problems. Frank seems to agree with Phillip, saying that one can’t carry out organic agriculture ‘by the book’ – “you have to think, watch and pay attention as an organic farmer”. I ask why can’t we understand food production much better – be it organic, biodynamic or any other means – with high quality science that involves researchers, students and farmers – something I have advocated for and practised throughout my career? My concerns about the promotion of such ‘alternative’ farming practices would largely be allayed if Phillip were to disclose to listeners that he and his wife have vested interests in producing (and presumably selling) organic/biodynamic produce.
Suffice to say, there are many skilled and knowledgeable agronomists in the world that the producers of LNL could invite onto the program to seek some answers to the questions raised. There is a strong science base that underpins commercial food production.
I agree with Frank when he concludes: “if we stopped farming this way (i.e. monocultures), most of us would starve within a year”! Yes, I agree.
LNL interviews about quirky aspects of farming are not limited to one presenter. Learning about livestock farming from a neuroscientist (40) is the subject of an interview conducted by David Marr with Professor Gregory Berns, a neuroscientist from Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, who has specialised in studying dogs but now tells us of the secret world of cattle! As David tells us, Greg is not a farmer but has learned something through his friendship with his cattle!
David admits the ignorance of many urban dwellers in Australia when he says flippantly that “cows are something we drive past”. (I think to myself: No David! Most Australians may do just that, but they also see parts of those farmed animals on their plate at night without feeling any need to understand the linkages between humans’ need for protein, livestock farming, abattoirs (and the people who work in those places), to produce food for our nourishment and enjoyment!)
Gregory wants humans to slow down in order to understand cows. How do they eat grass? When grazing, a herd of cattle moves as a line, they lie down, they ruminate. Food is so important for all animals’ social lives. When his cattle sat down, he sat down with them and found that they are attuned to picking up on our emotional states. By being calm and relaxed, he found that they will happily interact with people. He is somewhat surprised that his bull is not necessarily the leader of the pack. His cows and bull all have names and are now part of the family. He concludes, somewhat anthropomorphically, that cows are individuals, and are capable of expressing affection.
What can I say? Yes, he tells a good story, but it did not make me want to buy his book! I realise that LNL is not a farming program, nor is it The Science Show, but surely it could occasionally balance some of these interviews with some which seek more in-depth expertise. There are many experts on livestock farming, especially in Australia, who could inform listeners with facts about a wide range of substantive issues which are part of livestock farming: from ethics to animal behaviour, genetics, methane emissions, grazing behaviour, intensive farming, animal health, etc.
Here is a fascinating conversation with a prolific author - a favourite of Phillip’s - and a hobby farmer (41), Simon Winchester. He now lives on 75 acres in Massachusetts in Northeast America on which he admits raising virtually no commercial product. Nevertheless, Phillip tells Simon that he is speaking: “one farmer to another”! “We are fellow apiarists”!
Deservedly, Simon is at the top of Phillip’s list of interviewees! It is fascinating to hear him talk about his life. He was born in London in 1944, started at boarding school at age 4, took a degree in Geology and started work in Uganda. He started writing after coming back to the UK and commenced his journalism career as a reporter for the Guardian including reporting on the British putting down riots in North Ireland. Later, he was posted to be a correspondent in Washington DC covering Watergate and Richard Nixon.
(Interestingly, he suggested in this interview that Trump will not be re-elected as President!)
His experiences reporting on the start of the Falkland Islands war for the Sunday Times were fascinating. He tells of his affinity for Hong Kong, after being posted there and living in the New Territories near Shenzen which grew from a village of 2,000 people to a city of 13 million over not much more than 20 years!
(We learn some personal things too! Simon has just had a hip replacement, and he is pleased that, on day one, he was able to go home. Phillip acknowledges that he is familiar with Simon’s recovery process as he has had two hip replacements himself!)
Simon has written authoritatively about so many fascinating subjects! The interview finishes with him telling us a little of the story from one of his books - ‘The Man who loved China’ - about a famous British biochemist, Dr Joseph Needham, who fell in love with China. Needham ended up writing 24 volumes of material documenting the inventions made in China throughout history, dating back as far as the 2nd century AD. Absolutely astonishing!
Phillip introduces this interview stating that the Netherlands is the second biggest agricultural exporter on the planet. In this interview with reporter Rik Rutten, we learn about the politics of managing nitrogen in farming (42). Conflict over nitrogen emissions from farming has led to the rise of the Dutch Farmer's Citizens Movement (BBB) which is dominating the upper house of the Netherlands government. Phillip states, “my day job is as a farmer; I produce beef … on grass”, suggests these problems are related to “industrial agriculture” and asks about the attitudes to climate change of farmers who have been protesting about controls on nitrogen pollution in agriculture. Although Rik, as a reporter, has been covering the nitrogen issue for only a couple of years, he explains that nitrogen emissions are now being monitored across all sectors of production, transport and animal feed. When Phillip asks if the EU might force farmers to stop their livestock farming, Rik suggests that they are more likely to impose increasingly stringent rules on nitrogen emissions. He explains that farmers in the Netherlands are not running just a few cows and chickens; many are now running multi-million-dollar enterprises.
The issues raised in this interview are very important. However, the discussion focuses almost exclusively on the problems of too much nitrogen. It does not inform the listener of the absolutely critical and vital role of nitrogen for all life on this planet – it is a major component of our atmosphere, amino acids, protein, food, our bodies and, of course, is in our waste. Those interested are invited to read more of what I have written about the importance of nitrogen in another blog titled Solving Earth’s problems ever so slowly - one element at a time ....
A discussion with a marine biologist and an advocate of regenerative agriculture about how to feed humans (43), highlights the need to address the global food crisis with more than 800 million people currently undernourished. Phillip’s interview with Professor Jacqueline McGlade (Strathmore University, Kenya) and Dr Terry McCosker OAM (Resource Consulting Services - RCS), is another instance of LNL promoting ‘alternative’ farming methods. They report on their recent conference, held in Brisbane and hosted by RCS, which provides education and advice about regenerative agriculture. Terry claims to have been a leader in regenerative agriculture for over 30 years. He suggests that, in the grazing industries, we just need to change grazing management. He acknowledges that, with cropping, it is a bit harder. He looks for transitions in soil biology and claims to ‘do no harm’. His approach to farming differs from the more traditional focus on production. At the conference, their conversation was about more about birds and indigenous knowledge than on production. But there is no mention that RCS has jumped on the ‘regenerative’ bandwagon quite recently! Terry started his business promoting ‘Grazing for Profit’ based on principles developed by Allan Savory. I wrote about my concerns with the claims made about grazing management by these proponents some 29 years ago in a paper prepared for my 3rd year Agronomy students, back when the words ‘regenerative farming’ had not yet been conceived! (Check this out on Google Trends).
The interviewees question the focus on production by most farmers, and I wonder why. Ask any commercial farmer and they will tell you! Those who don’t depend on farming for a living can afford to pose such questions. In the interview, Phillip declares: “You are talking to a farmer who has been practising these principles for almost 40 years” but “we are connected to these wretched supply chains” apparently in reference to the interruption of food supplies due to the conflict in Ukraine.
It does not surprise me that they speak of the need for those who practise ‘alternative ways of farming’ to form networks.
Phillip correctly states that “the earth depends on the earth” … and calls for “more pressure from consumers”. But I would counter that consumers are a large part of the problem as they allow supermarkets to promote their “prices, down, down” mantra. Sadly, most consumers want an endless supply of safe, convenient food for as little money as possible – and to hell with the farmers! Hence there is always pressure on farmers to produce as efficiently as possible with insufficient pricing incentives to address any environmental consequences. So, yes, consumers need to apply more pressure on addressing environmental problems in farming, but they need to do so with their wallets!
Terry talks of the ‘social license’ which the community silently gives to farmers and mentions attitudes to issues such as live export. But the LNL program does not mention other aspects of the social licence for farming such as the NSW government downgrading its extension services from the NSW Department of Primary Industries some years ago – such that now our society across the State has less ability to provide trusted advice to farmers as well as to combat vitally important matters which arise from time to time such as containing the spread of fire ants.
Some of the claims made for the success of regenerative farming include: managing the ecosystem for its health, lowering input costs, sequestering more carbon (50 kg of CO2 for each kg of meat produced) in spite of experiencing pasture dieback, more ground cover reduced flows to the Great Barrier Reef, a 14% increase in productivity and they handled droughts better. That is quite a list of claims!
These results from ‘Project pioneer’ led by RCS, with funding from the Federal government, supported the training of 150 families in ‘Grazing for Profit’ and other activities.
Please forgive me for expressing some scepticism at all these claims!
The reason for my scepticism is that the claims of the benefits of intensive rotational grazing have been tested and the results published in a series of 24 peer-reviewed papers investigating all aspects of the complex interaction that occurs on grazing properties. Working with farmers, researchers and extension agents on the Northern Tablelands of NSW, the Cicerone Project demonstrated that the system of intensive rotational grazing promoted by Savory and Terry McCosker did not prove to be more productive or profitable than more flexible grazing regimes which addressed soil fertility constraints.
I was pleased to hear Phillip ask whether these measures of carbon might be seen as credible, given the criticisms of carbon accounting by ANU’s law Professor Andrew Macintosh.
It is no surprise that Terry says that their measures of soil carbon are the most rigorous!
When questioned about her work in Kenya, Jacqueline tells us that, with their many small farms, they don’t really call it ‘regenerative’. Still, she claims that they are capturing carbon, planting indigenous trees, some of which have ‘magical properties’.
Is her work scalable? Yes, it doesn’t matter what scale. Good things are happening too in Greenland and Iceland.
Of course, I think we can all agree with her that children need good nutrition in their first 1000 days!
Jacqueline says, “we need to listen to the land” and we can smell if soil is healthy.
Towards the end of the interview, Terry tells us to avoid what he calls ‘carbon tunnel vision’ as it will lead to unintended consequences. Apparently, all these issues can be solved by adopting regenerative farming without focusing just on carbon dioxide. He suggests that, as farmers in the Netherlands strive to reduce nitrogen inputs, their government should help farmers to transition to lower inputs whilst maintaining productivity and profitability.
Aside from my scepticism about some of the extraordinary claims made in this interview, the failure to mention the potential conflict of interest of this private consulting firm (RCS) promoting its financial interests as it provides training services to farmers was, in my view, a serious deficiency.
A couple of weeks later, Phillip presents another interview about regenerative agriculture – this time, with a millennial writer (44), Sam Vincent. He is the author of ‘My Father and Other Animals: How I took on the family farm’. Phillip recalls how he had previously interviewed Charles Massy about his book on regenerative farming, Call of the Reed Warbler.
Sam is the son of one of the farmers written about by Charles Massy. He farms 650 acres near the ACT border, with 70 different fruit trees on which his father learned to practise regenerative farming. He has established a fig orchard to complement some cattle and sheep and is striving for self-sufficiency in food production.
Phillip mentions that cattle can be an environmental issue as ‘they burp”. Sam responds that he is using holistic planned grazing, employing small paddocks with intensive rotational grazing which helps sequester carbon and increases biodiversity. He believes that methane has been around for millions of years and that, on his farm, his cows most likely sequester more carbon than they emit. He also questions the notion put forward by others that Australia is incompatible with cloven-hooved animals. Sam has observed gully erosion on a neighbouring farm due to continuous grazing by sheep. Phillip asserts that “overgrazing is one of the most destructive bad habits of shoddy farming” – I agree completely!
Phillip prompts him by asking “where do you fit with Allan Savory?” Sam responds that “I went to TAFE to learn about holistic management and Allan Savory is the founder of that, a god-like figure to a lot of graziers”. But he says that “I don’t buy his argument that cattle alone can fix the climate crisis. Still, he is generally in favour of Savory’s claims of benefits of grazing management for making money, producing food, increasing biodiversity, retaining water in the landscape, improving soil and its microbiology”.
In response to Phillip’s question of how his farming system works with less rainfall, Sam explains that he aims, with better ground cover, to trap water on the farm so that the water soaks in, allowing perennial grasses to grow.
Phillip concurs “we have also gone back to encouraging native grasses”. Sam’s grazing rest period is up to a year and mentions “the law of the second bite” – under which you have to let grasses recover or they will die, leading to bare ground and then erosion.
Phillip asks about his attitude to managing land that was originally stewarded by First Nations people. Sam tells us that he invited an aboriginal expert to survey his land over some weeks. In the 3rd week, he found an ochre quarry and some stone tools. So, he engaged with elders and has organised to have the land gazetted. “It is the highlight of my farming career so far”.
Women
Hearing Chilean author Isabel Allende raging against the patriarchy! (45) in her interview with Phillip, was an eye-opener for me. Her books have been translated into 42 languages! In her most recent book – a memoir ‘The Soul of a Woman’ – she explains how she became a feminist at the age of 5 and grew up wanting to challenge the patriarchy. We learn that both Phillip and Isabel share the experience of an unhappy childhood. She says this experience “makes you tough”. Her mother grew up to be someone’s wife and be a mother to her children – as a woman, she had no choice. Her grandfather was raised after his father committed suicide. He was a self-made man, and he taught Isabel valuable lessons of life saying, “you can do better”. His voice has been with her all her life.
She worked as a journalist in Chile with a feminist focus – allowed her to channel her anger at the patriarchy – before the military coup.
After the coup, in 1973, she had to flee the regime in Chile. Since then, “the idea of belonging and exile permeates my writing”.
Reading the Female Eunuch by Germaine Greer was transforming for her. It gave her a lot of ideas of how to write about feminist issues. “I didn’t know you could write like that”.
Historically, Latin American literature had few female authors. With time, Isabel has become the most widely read Spanish writer in the world.
Phillip asks her if she has felt the pull of the writing style “magical realism”. She counters that she is critical of magical thinking people and says “I live in a country of magical thinking right now, the United States. There are 80m people who believe in all kinds of conspiracy theories that are magical thinking. People who handle snakes, speak in tongues, … the astrologers, homeopathy.”
She tells a heartwarming story of the memoir she published about her daughter, Paula, who passed away due to illness. Income from that book has gone into a foundation to honour her memory and is used to invest in women and girls. She also works through her foundation to help immigrants.
The patriarchy is a system of oppression that gives dominance to the male gender. She continues to challenge male authority. “The final goal is to replace the patriarchy by the management of the world in which men and women have equal numbers and equal power”.
In Phillip’s engaging chat with John Clarke’s daughter, Lorin (46), we start by hearing a glowing tribute to some of her father’s political satire. As Malcolm Turnbull remembered “with lethal accuracy he made politicians and prime ministers his prey.” His nasal sound was so distinctive.
Lorin’s book about her dad is titled “Would that be funny? Growing Up with John Clarke”.
She tells how, after leaving New Zealand for London, he worked in Harrods as a delivery driver, and this experience taught him so much about the British upper class. He consumed a diet of British comedy, taping them and learning much of it by heart.
John benefited from his father-in-law, Lorin’s grandfather on her mother’s side, who was an intellectual type, having started the Arts department of Swinburne University. He gave John the confidence to develop his comedic career after he asked John: “what do you want to do?” On hearing that John enjoyed performing in comedy reviews, he said to John: “Why don’t you do that?” So, John took his advice and became one of the most famous people in New Zealand, through his character, Fred Dagg.
Phillip obviously knew John well, so it is delightful to hear Phillip and Lorin entertain us with back-and-forth anecdotes about him.
During his time producing movies, Phillip employed John as a screenwriter for one of his films. (I was aware that Phillip was very influential in kick-starting Australia’s film industry, but I was surprised when he declared that he once had a film company called Adams-Packer (i.e. Kerry Packer).
Phillip kindly reflects: whereas Barry Humphries had venom in his humor, John’s humour “… was never cruel … he had a comedy of kindness”.
Lorin agreed: “He was kind to people and to his friends”.
They chat about other aspects of John’s comedy career that many of us remember: such as the TV show The Games and his love of poetry, including ‘Australianising’ famous poets such as “Dylan Thompson”! He outlandishly wrote that all of the great western poets were actually Australian! And to top it off, we heard a very funny poem about Bob Hawke based on AA Milne.
In addition to enjoying this interview, I have enjoyed Lorin’s creativity through The Fitzroy Diaries on the ABC. It makes me reflect: isn’t it wonderful that two generations of wonderfully creative people (John and Lorin) can blossom out of the very unhappy marriage of John’s parents? Sadly, we learn that Ted (John’s father) used to belittle John by telling him “You will never amount to anything”. Well, I think we all know that John proved him wrong!
In Phillip’s introduction to this interview with Dr Jess Wade (UK) and Annie Reynolds (Australia), he says “it is hard to imagine a world without Wikipedia”. I agree! But, I wonder, who would have thought there might be a gender divide in Wikipedia? (47). When I first encountered this non-profit encyclopedia, I thought ‘that will never work’ – and yet it has in ways that I never thought possible. However, I guess it is unsurprising that more than 80% of volunteer editors are male; this creates biases in Wikipedia’s content.
Historically, science has had a male bias as have research, promotions, funding, etc.
A group called WomenInRed runs events to get people interested in writing about different subject areas.
The stories of some of the women recently added to Wikipedia are so inspirational. Here are a few examples:
· Prof Kim Cobb, who studies the impact of humans on the globe, now has a Wikipedia page which is helping others get inspired and involved in important climate research.
· Elizabeth Sudmeier was a founding member of the CIA in the US.
· Over 50 years ago, Gladys West was instrumental in the mathematical modeling of the shape of the Earth which underpinned the development of technologies such as GPS.
· Hazel de Berg was an amazing woman photographer and a pioneer of oral history in Australia. In the early 1950s, she started reading books for the blind. She got poets to read their poetry for a blind audience. Her collection of some 44,000 recordings – a ‘collection of sound tape reels of interviews with writers, historians, artists, musicians and scientists’ – is held in the National Library of Australia.
USA
Having lived in the US for five years, back in the 1970s, I have a special interest in hearing many of LNL’s interviews about the US and I especially enjoy the fortnightly insights from the regular commentator, Bruce Shapiro. Phillip is rightfully very critical of US politics and his oft-made claim that it is a ‘failed state’ is getting more credible by the day. His interview with journalist and author Tony Horwitz in 2015 helps us to understand the hate and racism that arose and lingers within America (48). This interview focuses on his book about the Confederate flag and its link to racism in the southern US States. Recent events have led to the revision of monuments including Confederate statues across the nation.
After listening to this interview in 2019, following Tony’s untimely death, I was fascinated to learn he was working on another book. I can now report that I enjoyed that book – ‘Spying on the South: an odyssey across the American Divide’ – immensely. It helps explain so much of the history of racism across the United States. It is worth noting that the book ends with some considerable hope.
Environment
As I mentioned in the Science section above, Phillip appreciates the value of science and especially so in this interview with Dr Joëlle Gergis, a climate scientist who has written a book to inspire humanity to fix the climate crisis. In it, she presents scientific evidence for hope in responding to the climate crisis (49). LNL has conducted many interviews on matters of climate change over decades. She is an excellent communicator and speaks with real passion about scientific evidence for climate change. Her PhD was on El Niño events that are linked to droughts and floods across the world and she was a lead author for the IPCC 6th Assessment Report.
She explains how we need not only to understand the facts but also to feel the heartbreak of what we are losing and to bring it all together to bring about change. Her explanations of the complex interactions between humans and the natural world are expressed with passion in an engaging way. Australia, being surrounded by oceans, is very much affected by changes in the oceans and feedback loops. Our experiences in Australia from “crippling drought into torrential rain” make it so hard for us to ignore.
She believes we have the technologies to combat climate change, and we just need more commitment. Solving it will cost a lot but that is an investment in our future.
Since listening to this interview, I enjoyed reading her 2024 Quarterly Essay ‘Highway to hell: climate change and Australia’s future’.
Indigenous
Phillip has great respect for First Nations people across Australia, having interviewed many significant indigenous voices over the decades. His support for the Voice referendum was wholehearted. Here is an example is just one of his regular updates on indigenous affairs including fulfilling employment (50) conducted with the wonderfully articulate and knowledgeable Dana Morse. As an ABC Political Reporter for Indigenous Affairs, she regularly updates listeners with matters of indigenous affairs across Australia.
War
Phillip conducted this interview with Eliot Higgins who uses open-source investigation of war crimes using smart phone evidence (51). Eliot founded Bellingcat in 2014 as a volunteer organisation. It operates under the credo of ‘identify, verify and amplify’ to work out what has been happening with events around the world. It is amazing to me that such a group can arise due to the goodwill of people of conscience. Now they have 20 staff and are based in the Netherlands. He describes how, through Russian phone records, they were able to piece together evidence of who poisoned Russian Opposition leader Alexei Navalny. They are now working to support the work of the International Criminal Court related to war crimes. They have explored video evidence of the types of munitions used in the conflict in Syria.
It is pleasing to hear that legacy news organisations, like The New York Times and the BBC, are now recognising the value of open-source investigations.
David Marr’s interview with NY Times journalist Dave Phillips exposes how the US military ignored scientific evidence of the cause of brain injuries (52). It is so sad to learn of the evidence that most brain injuries are caused by exposure to blasts experienced during training rather than during combat. Since ‘9/11’, over 30,000 US veterans have died by suicide! The effects of these blasts, due to the firing of weapons, on the brains of soldiers is catastrophic. It is sad to learn that the US military has been so slow and conservative in responding to the scientific evidence. No doubt, it would be possible to redesign training and, possibly even weapons, to reduce the exposure of soldiers to blast injuries.
Final reflections
Most of the LNL interviews are conducted with authors of recently published books. No doubt there are some vested interests involved in getting books published by certain commercial publishing houses onto the reading list of LNL producers and presenters. One wonders how the ABC, as a public broadcaster, handles these commercial matters, especially when presenters declare their appreciation of publishers such as “our friends at Scribe/Black Inc/etc.”
Who are the gatekeepers that decide who is published? Obviously, it is largely the publishers and their marketing/publicity ecosystem which includes the media such as LNL. Those who have connections to this ecosystem get published. I submit that many valuable and trustworthy stories and points of view never see the light of day as published books.
I can remember, as a teenager, listening to opinionated presenters on their ‘soap boxes’ speaking to small audiences in the Domain, in Sydney. Today, the reach of successful presenters is infinitely greater. If one is provided a ‘soap box’ on the national broadcaster, then it behoves one to declare any conflicts of interest. I suggest that it should not be to promote a particular ideology or belief without sufficient disclosure. As noted above, there have been a few instances where I suggest this has happened on LNL. And it happens with some other programs on the ABC, such as Australian Story, which at times strongly advocates for ideological approaches to important matters. For example, it has presented data-free, anecdotal stories about ‘regenerative farming’ without declaring possible conflicts of interest possessed by the subjects of the program. As National Farmers' Federation president, Fiona Simson stated in relation to this matter: “While … there are some "good principles" … "It just probably goes that next step further to being the way of the truth and life, somebody who's drunk the cordial." I couldn’t agree more!
So, to get an opportunity to speak to the nation about one’s passion on LNL one needs first and foremost to be a published author or journalist, preferably with an international reputation, and perhaps in some disciplines have an ideology akin to those of one or more of the producers and/or presenters! It is the ideological component that I find jarring.
I am strongly in favour of the ABC (and SBS) being supported by government funding at a consistent, small percentage of our budget without undue political influence. I enjoyed reading ABC Chair Kim William’s recent article in the Saturday Paper in which he puts convincing arguments for ensuring a more stable and increased level of funding for the both of these public broadcasters.
And so, I look forward to continue ‘getting educated’ by LNL and our treasured, publicly funded national broadcaster, the ABC!
(To listen to the interviews, you will find hyperlinks to each in the 3rd part of this series: My Love Letter to Late Night Live – 52 Links)